Marx Caisson Reissue Question
Bill Nevins sent a question on the Marx Caisson reissue. The Marx Caisson was one of most exciting part of the Civil War playset that did. With its four horse team and shell shooting cannon it was the hit of the set. I know that it was sold separately on blister card as I saw it as a child and would bought it if I had the money. Since then I have seen the card only a couple of times.
Here is Bill’s Marx caisson reissue question and comments.
Paul, Many years ago, Bill Murphy gave me these test shots from the Marx Caisson and Cannon mold. Late ’80’s probably, Lango’s show. I remember walking by the Excalibur stand and having Bill grab me and show me these tests shots. He was very excited about the colors, especially the brown wheels. I was amazed, to say the least.
I wasn’t leaving without one of each color!!!!
Bill was gracious about it and I got to pick 6 complete sets.
I don’t think that there were more than 2 dozen sets in total.
Whatever happened, the mold was never run in production, as far as I know.
Perhaps you know more.
Classic Plastic did the remold, but I don’t think it was from the original Marx mold. If you look at the last picture, you’ll see a side by side comparison of the CP mold and original Marx mold.
Notice the “C” and “P” inside the circles, on the underside of the caisson, where the eject rods would have pushed the piece out. This is how you can tell a CP from an original.
These are great pieces, in some very cool colors. I think that Bill wanted to do several colors, because his repro wagons were so well received.
I consider myself very lucky to have these. I don’t think that these were ever made available. I recall him telling me that he had just gotten these the day before the show and that this was all that had arrived.
I’m curious to know if anyone else has these…..Bill
Was the C&C mold one that was stolen?……Bill
Answers to the Questions
The answer to the Marx Caisson Reissue Question is as follows, yes the mold was run. Until Bill asked his Marx Caisson Reissue Question, I forgot the story behind it.. The caisson mold had been run, Jim McGough along with another party got a six month exclusive to sell the caisson before Excalibur Hobbies could sell it. I believe that Jim and his associate wanted run in the same colors as the original so Bill ran it without doing any color changes. After the exclusive expired , Excalibur Hobbies sold the caisson.
As to if the mold was stolen, the answer is yes. Rumor put it in Mexico but it has never surfaced up. Because of the loss of this mold CTS made a new one.
Update
T D Barnecut send us this:
Here is an image of an Army caisson which supports my suggestion that a limber does not have to have two ammo boxes aboard to be considered a ‘caisson’.
Marx labeled this product wrong for some reason. It is actually just a limber and cannon. I have several in brown that CTS sold as Alamo sets many years ago
A Classic Plastic advert in Dec. 1990 PFPC shows the re-issued Marx caisson & cannon with horses & riders selling for about $30. Not sure who would have bought them at that price, for a re-issue??
CTS caisson is not very good IMHO
The old song we all learned as kids referred to “as the caissons go rolling along”, put the term ‘caisson’ into the public lexicon. The term ‘limber’ does not have as wide recognition and I would say the general public does not make a distinction between the two.
Yes limber doesn’t sound good in a song lol
You could say the limber is the two wheeled trailer – vehicle, while the ammunition box is the actual ‘caisson’, so it might be referred to as a ‘caisson’ whether there are one or two boxes onboard.
I would not
As TD said, the limber pulled the gun, the caisson hauled ammo, though sometimes circumstances dictated a gun could be limbered to the caisson. Would it then be called a cimber? A Laisson?
I also tend to agree with TD on why Marx “misnamed” it. Now that we are adults and into the history and accuracy aspect of it we know Marx named it wrong. But did we really care as kids? And Louis knew it – no one would have known what a limber was back then and we didn’t have the net to look it up right away.
I am reminded of a story I heard about the making of “Gladiator” with Russell Crowe. One of the technical/historical advisors told Ridley Scott that, contrary to popular belief and Hollywood, the signal “thumbs down” actually signified mercy instead of death in the gladiatorial arena. Scott mulled it over and thought if he went with history the audience would be confused so shot the scenes the way they had always been done – thus continuing tradition – and error.
As the man said, when fact gets in the way of legend – go with legend. (And I know I’m paraphrasing here)
Caisson pulled a gun? ExAmple pls
Upon further study I will say here that a limber has the pole attached to which the horses are tethered, the caisson appears to have only a lunette on point. So ya gotta have a limber to pull the caisson, regardless. My bad.
Caisson also carried that item
TD Barnecut and all involved. Please pardon my intromission.
According to all historical records, both name are attributed alternative to same.
The Limber come direct from the English word used for the more simple innovation post Napoleonic used and reintroduced/adopted after in most armies. The vehicle itself was intended to facility the driving of light and medium artillery at fast speed.
Wile the word Caisson direct from French was in use long before and referred to the carriage train that accompanied the cannon pulled by horses.
In my opinion because the Marx piece has already the chest(box ) on top of what could be the Limber but not quite depicted correct as a typical post Napoleonic era limber.
I will suggest it is a Caisson and Marx did not make a mistake at all .
Cannon were and could be pulled by caisson along with horses with out the limber.
It has been portrayed in manuals ,books, painting and even film.
I have 21 books manual of infantry ,military and artillery train/drills were specific depict the both way to carriage it. IF a caisson and limber are used together ,the cannon could be moved faster and in rough terrain at much faster speed that if not with limber of course; however it would required more horse pair and Marx was not with too many ,so once again confirming the correct use and label/name of it as caisson and not limber .
Disagree
The Limber is a two wheeled horse drawn vehicle with a single ammunition chest mounted on it, capable of towing behind it either an artillery gun, or a cassion…
Cassion is also a two wheeled vehicle but is towed, mounted with two ammunition chests… typically also can be seen with spare wheel mounted on the rear…
The main difference is the Limber has only one chest.. and is horse drawn… Cassion has one or up two chests… but is designed to be towed… has the same ring hitch as the trail end of the gun does…it has present to hitch the horses to as well as needed.
Each gun in a battery would typically have 2 Limbers and 1 Cassion with it…
Limber-1 & Gun
Limber-2 & Cassion .
However Limber 2 is usually keep in reserve as needed.
Whatever you call it, did these (and any other) colors ever come to market?
Did Excalibur ever sell repros?
What colors were the CTS versions and is the 1990 ad for the new mold or the original Marx mold.
I am way more interested in the story here than the definition of a caisson.
Agai,n does anyone else have these or any other colors?
I have had re-cast from Marx molds “caisson/limber” in both gray and brown. Pretty sure they were made by Murphy. They had extra hitch for total of four horses. Cannon did NOT fire. One thing I recall about the brown version was it showed white stress marks at the “hitch” points where the horses snapped in. Haven’t seen them around for quite a few years.
As I stated above I have some other colors purchased from CTS
No me.Sorry I can not help.
I never like it ,so not interest=never buy it.
Andy Check underneath where I show the “CP” in the last pic. An Excalibur run won’t have the CP.
Checked – no C P marks.
I painted the one I have, so don’t know what color the wheels were originally.
And what colors are the wheels?
Excalibur Hobbies sold reissues for several years in the 1990s. The ones I got were silver with black wheels. They had reworked the mold a bit to make the the pieces the horses attached to slightly bigger and stronger and less prone to damage. These molds + WWII German armor, & 54mm wagons and tops are among the molds the disappeared.
Some other molds lost were the long coated cavalry poses, frame for German 88 and buffalo
Kent – I picked up 2 of them from you in 1999. They were all light grey. Where did they come from?
I bought eight of them in the early 1990s from the Toy Soldier Company. They came in small white boxes with the Excalibur Hobbies label taped to them. They were all in shades of lighter or darker gray. The harness horses were all chocolate brown. The wheels were either black or light gray. There was no CP underneath any of them. The Union ones had two seated callers and two western wagon drivers with whips in dark blue. The Confederate ones had two seated callers and two outriders in medium gray.
With a grand total of 8 cannon/caisson/limbers, each pulled by a team of 4 horses, that must have been quite a Civil War battle recreation spectacle. I would have enjoyed seeing it.
I bought two in 1993 from Stone Castle Imports; they are stored somewhere in my hobby room, which, due to some recent ongoing home improvements are nearly inaccessible. I don’t remember if they had an imprint or not, but they were in fairly stiff darker gray plastic. I bought one Confederate and one Union team; I am glad I got these as they replace the long lost caisson I had with my Giant Blue and Gray set but I am glad CTS came out with their versions of Caisson AND separate limber with teams.
Digging through closet & found box from “Marx Reissue Civil War Caisson & Cannon. Union Version, etc., etc……. hard gray plastic… Distributed By: Excalibur Hobbies Ltd. Malden, MA… MXR-917A”
So, they only came on some shade of gray then?
Well – THIS label said “union version” and “gray plastic”. I’m guessing there must have been a “confederate version” with corresponding label and MAYBE versions came in “brown plastic”. I remember buying one on eBay that came w/o a box. It was brown plastic and it had white stress marks at the hitches where the horses were clipped in. I considered that to be “damage”, and sent it back for a refund. That was quite a few years ago. No idea who could have made that one. I KNOW it was brown because I specifically wanted it in that color. I think McGough offered a choice of gray or brown way back when at CTS when these were available. Brown seemed “harder to get” than gray. This had to be 12 – 15 years ago.
I’m going to e-mail Hobbybunker & see if they remember.
I have brown limbers and black grAy and brown wheels
Heard back from Hobbybunker: “Bill Murphy tells us that he did cast some Marx Re-Issue ACW caissons back at Excalibur, but those were not cast in brown. He no longer has that mold.” Now, WHERE did the BROWN ones come from????
Andy
they may have been samples that Bill Murphy got with the mold.
Paul, do you remember the brown ones??
Brown ones I got from CTS. Labeled for Alamo use. Limber riders were Mexicans
CTS did several two new Mexican poses for the caisson. Timpo did a similar ploy when they did a caisson they did it with Mexicans as well as Civil War. The Mexican caisson may be the hardest version to find of the caissons. The Mexicans were their Sombreros Mexicans with a set of sitting legs made for the Mexican.
Could also have been a test shot. I have them in brown, blue, silver and two shades of green. I know that Bill had several more tests shots than the ones that I got.