Korean War Photo

Posted on June 15, 2015 by admin

Korea 048

 

We got this information from Carl Cwiklinski

 Just to show how well CTS sculpted their Red Chinese figures, here are uniformed mannequins on display at the War Museum in Seoul.  Sorry about the reflection on the glass.

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27 Responses to Korean War Photo

  1. Mark says:
    June 15, 2015 at 6:23 PM

    Thanks for the photo Carl ! Interesting color, does anybody know if this was an original color or could it have yellowed over time ?

    Reply
  2. erwin says:
    June 15, 2015 at 6:25 PM

    Mark it was either white or light tan, not that obscure as probably time and light effect giving impression in this picture

    Reply
  3. Mark says:
    June 15, 2015 at 6:39 PM

    Thanks Erwin, I found some more Korean War uniforms by using Google Images

    Reply
    • Don Perkins says:
      June 15, 2015 at 9:25 PM

      I wonder if those quilted, padded uniforms worn by the Chinese Communists really keep you warm. They look like they would. When I spent a year in Korea in 1976, in winter training exercises, it seemed we were almost always cold in our U.S. Army fatigues, and always had to supplement them with long underwear and multiple pairs of socks under our combat boots. It still left us cold.

      Reply
  4. erwin says:
    June 15, 2015 at 10:15 PM

    Don.Yes they did according to many veteran and history records and US department of defense that test it several time, original designed by Manchurians(Northern china and very cold mountain regions) for nationalist army in the late 20’s-early 30’s from a civil type clothing origin;then used by Chinese during Sino Japanese war 1937-1945.Adopted and used by some northern JAPANESE FORCES during the war and few JAPs units used it during the Aleutian Islands Campaign (1942/43) campaign as well. It was used in China civil war or communist take over war.(1945-1949) by both sides in varies colors.
    A later redesigned type(the one in pictures) but with same basic material was supplied to Korean “COMUNIST FORCES” and Chinese army alike. Same in hat. Both differ a lot on Russian ww2 design that was based too in same Manchurian original style.
    Compare to us supplied winter coats it was much better and could keep your body warmer for much longer periods of times plus the inside with the double inside and outside shell give a light protection against shrapnel and indirect or long bullet shots/fire as well.
    Given the thoughts for those making conversion by changing few head and weapon you can make your japs for winter too with the CTS winter Korean/Chinese.!!

    Reply
  5. erwin says:
    June 15, 2015 at 10:22 PM

    I will like to add that Chinese and NK sleep out in winter condition using these by forming piles of 15-30 mens and embracing all together creating a warm effect with bulk human and good winter parkas/clothing effect. There is plenty historical records of it and did work very often .Korean an Chinese armies were under power in air force where US allies used recognizing air forces to discover then day and night. Winter fire to warm was a very dangerous way of being spotted by air and bring massive bombardment as the. High communist command forbid under shot punishment to light fire many times .So they will have to use the above mentioned way to hide and warm during resting time.

    Reply
  6. erwin says:
    June 15, 2015 at 11:06 PM

    List of movies made recently in SK about war, most are very well done in acting , effect and history plus great drama. Any ways they reflect the battle from the point of view of Korean army supplied by US army that fought very well till the end I should said.I had seen all and recommend watching from the historical/action/drama point if view in my opinion.
    In order of recommendation and easy to see least some parts at you tube for free are.You can order some from Netflix or download in other median net as well buy DVD online from US source please !!
    Taegukgi: The Brotherhood of War .-2004
    71: Into the Fire .-2010(base in true historical battle/action)
    The Front Line 2011(loosely base in historical events)
    Nambugun: North Korean Partisan in South Korea .1990
    Welcome to Dongmakgol -2005(a drama-comedy film but good refreshing with a action scenes and nice end drama)-only one where one main character is an American pilot.
    -Last a series of 13 chapters for the TV was done and is full of plenty well done action scenes plus good acting. It is available in Netflix and internet too, also in you tube some parts.-name is (Legend of the Patriots -2010 )

    Reply
  7. Tom Black says:
    June 15, 2015 at 11:53 PM

    So the Soviets, Chinese, NKA and Americans all had similar Winter caps. What was the difference between the American and Soviet/Chinese? The Brits had the Commando style wool stocking cap and the Canadians had their own style cap also but the remainder of UN forces were supplied with American a Winter gear?

    Reply
    • Greg Liska says:
      June 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM

      Tom –
      If you saw the hats next to each other, you’d see the differences right away. The US supplied one is also distinctly greener.

      Reply
  8. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 12:10 AM

    Similar style not same exact lined design.(NK and Chinese are pretty much same ).
    Soviet/Russian WW2 is a bit different .”Please do not confuse with Cossack winter hat”
    US-army style is more as like typical country American style winter woodland hat ,it was officially made for US army as (M-1951 PILE HAT ) based in original ww2 air force WW2 model one and more common distributed to all US ,SK and rest of UN forces. Canadians used it as well too some times. The AMERICAN it is of four same era war winter pile hat the more different and easy to recognize from distance from others.
    Russian/Asian stile did cover more neck/ back areas and are more heavy furry and with larger flap-“generally front square visor full furry”.

    Reply
  9. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 12:44 AM

    Sorry; I forgot mention. Russian generic name for standard army winter hat is (ushanka) of which some variation had been done and cloned by other countries as well after WW2..Included the US and Canadian police after the 60’70’s.

    Reply
  10. Greg Liska says:
    June 16, 2015 at 5:29 PM

    I’m going to throw my 2.3 cents in. The color varied quite a bit. The QC on the stuff was not super tight. The color could be more grey, more yellow, more brown. The dyes would fade at different rates, too. There’s a range of colors the uniforms could be, all somewhat close. I sent a bunch of pics from the National Infantry Museum to Jim at his request. If anyone’s interested, I’ll send them to Paul for posting.
    The Communists didn’t fare all that well in the cold. Sure, that gear was a bit better than what we had at the time, but they froze. I had talked to vets from the war and they told me stories to taking prisoners who could not throw down their weapons because their hands were frozen solid, or could not walk fast enough because their feet were frozen solid. I’d used the US’s old parka in Norway and Goose Bay, Canada for Winter Warfare Tng and it was OK, but you have to use layers in dressing for winter no matter what. That’s the right way to do it and that is emphasized with our modern Gortex and Polypropilene ‘Spear Suits’ which has a total of 6 layers.
    Lastly – a strange anecdote about the Ushanka. When the Soviet Army was expanding rapidly in the 1930’s the hat could no longer be made out of rabbit or other pelts in the numbers they needed, so artificial materials were used. Soldiers began calling it the ‘fish-fur hat’ because there was as much fur on it as there was on a fish.

    Reply
  11. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 7:50 PM

    Here I’m again…with a penny back. Was joking Greg…
    Yep, I agree Greg .The dyes was changed by most outside effect over. No doubt.
    Still -white and light tan fabric was more common for winter cammo effect preferred choose and because material choose was not dye at all but actually white/light tan fabric/with outside nylon type C462 intentional made as that. In fact Chinese barely dyes their uniform too much as not too much time and money (dyes work cost money, specially for army uniforms that required a lot of the best ).So was original intended, still reason as you say change it over many times. Sample the Russian winter parkas for Russian a and finns in the 30’s main base color choose in factory was that white/light tan according to museums ,but often seen then very yellowish or else because of situation you mentioned.
    China’s museums(People’s revolutionary labor and army defense museum in Shenyang) shows the textile factory pieces and sample used in mass production and factory during the fast build up of northern (voluntary army) as they call it when went to Korea. In there is the explanation mentioned above.
    And yes not doubt Korean and Chinese froze to death in good quantity(Soviets in WW2 too even propaganda and simple history shows as only Germans did. ).
    Still way less than UN and US-SK ; but most because they were expose to much harsh punished condition than any other for more longer condition as typical communist tyrannical army; most were pure foot soldiers with out any motor transportation, almost no time or prohibit to light camp fires, lack of supply food from China by Soviet main close warehouse that Stalin first promises but then start to limit(Mao main complain was to ask soviet to keep a main constant food and weapon supply to their troops, Russian back and did not supply enough. China then was tire and decide to back up too after not main support from soviets in enough quantities and also because their losses in the supply line(only by truck and in hazard road winter mountain condition houdred of miles from China) due to AIR force attack
    .Any how interesting fact is during last years on china civil war (1945-49) nationalist armies used to wear same in dark olive winter coats/pants too as their army was partially build then supplied with US weapon and gear. So to match the colors as close possible. You can see some B/W documentary about it and notice how clear and dark the colors of both side look in field.(So once again if making conversion here both side could be done using same uniform, just this time the weapons in nationalist were more US- M1 primary from 1945-1949).
    Regarding about the Chinese making notice with tin/pans mentioned by another collector during specially night attack. I should add the first 100.000 Chinese soldiers send to the front had about 20.000 forced conscript taken from prison(ex former nationalist Chinese prisoners of war) They are the most used as front bullet target and forced to advance doing this for several reason(if you make it alive in first attack ,he will be granted a weapon with few rounds for next attack, if he survived the second will be reenlisted as regular private as part of (reintegration to new socialist society) if he survive war all his confiscated properties will be returned(usually only his house) as most did not have more than that.
    There several books written in HK and SK about few who deserter and give testament about it. Later after the “”cultural mass murder revolution”” china unofficially had admitted using PW in their army back in 1950/52 as to give then(“reintegration rights”).LOL!!They reintegrate more in mass graves on Korea-poor guys I will add.
    This was often used by soviet too in WW2 and another purpose is to give enemy they are facing light weak enemy with few weapons.Chinese regular infantryman was not bad armed in their infantry light weapons. They have the PPS41,and many last Russian weapons in stock in huge quantities, in fact at beginning as Stalin promised they were supplied with last regular tec from Russia army.no(The AK47)as was still a top secret. The PPS41 and other Russian weapons performed very well and often better in winter hard condition than most US weapons, there plenty of records showing this. We can not denied that Russian and fins were and still master in winter condition all time. Today most Canadian and US troopers use all winter designed clothing base and almost identical to Russians. I’m not making it up, please Google.
    Sample the ushanka is used by all over any other. Parka original made by Finns is the best protection till new thermal/self heated fabric start appearing.
    The anecdote of the ushanka is complete true I had heard it before but not complete explained as you did. Thank you for it.
    Last but no least ,during ww2 the US “lend lease program” expand the hunting permit for deer and black bears in the US ,included most part of northern east. This was to supply (our “friends”) the soviets with winter clothing being done in US factories by American(yes made in US) I said.
    Result, a huge decline in both species that prompt a void in hunting of both species in many region for years. In some regions deer came to total extinction.

    Reply
  12. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 7:51 PM

    wow, did I write so much!!?. I guess adm have to put a limit ban on my next time. Sorry guys hope don’t fall sleep.

    Reply
  13. Wayne W says:
    June 16, 2015 at 9:39 PM

    As we used to say, you can handle being cold and you can handle being wet; but when they gang up on you, you are hosed.

    The idea behind the US Army winter clothing was it was better to dress in looser layers thus trapping warm air between the layers of clothing and enhancing its ability to keep one warm. One could also adjust one’s clothing based on the temperature and activity level. There is nothing worse when living in a freezing field environment than to overheat in physical activity like marching or digging a foxhole and then, when you are hot and actually sweating under your clothing having to sit still – particularly in your feet and hands – a great recipe for frostbite.

    I tried to wear our rubber overshoes as little as possible for that very reason – they were heavy to move in – though they kept your feet warm while you were moving. At the same time, when you sat still after heavy activity and your feet were sweaty and you socks were wet your feet froze – unless you had time to change socks, but even then the rubber of the overshoes kept your feet from being able to breathe properly.

    Having said that, I had an older style Army Parka during my first hitch in Germany that still had woven wool inserts (later replaced by nylon) – it was one of the finest pieces of cold weather gear the Army used – according to many a Cold War GI is probably the main reason they got rid of it. The Field Jacket and insert with long john underwear, woolen field shirt and cotton field pants worked great, too. Personally, I liked the flexibility of the US equipment.

    When I was in high school my dad (also a career soldier) gave me his old Korean War Era winter overcoat. It was water-resistant and heavily quilted. I know of more than one cold winter night in Germany I huddled up in that thing and slept as warmly as if I was in a sleeping bag. It might have been somewhat awkward trying to move quickly in a firefight wearing that thing, though.

    The Korean War Era US Army pile caps were similar to the Soviet Ushankas. Sometime between then and when I served (mid-70s) the side (ear flaps) of our pile caps were rolled up and folded under and Velcro was added in the later versions to hold the chin straps together both under the chin and on the front over the forehead when rolled up. I have some pix of us wearing the later US pile cap in cold environments.

    Reply
  14. Greg Liska says:
    June 16, 2015 at 9:54 PM

    Erwin – Nothing you wrote there is in conflict with what I have read. We agree. The Soviet provided stuff was most likely the straw yellow ones I’d seen, or they might just have been stained and filthy. Our old pile cap looked Russian enough. The direct lineage of our post WWII winter gear came from a study done on German equipment, much of which was taken from the Soviets. Our parka looked more like the German version as it was not quilted and had a very similar button and draw-string arrangement. I even used a repro Sumpftarn parka in Afghanistan 2 years ago and nobody thought twice about it. Then, a German Captain asked me if that pattern was from a certain European empire. I just gave him a big grin and said, “Well, it wasn’t Rome”.
    The Soviet small arms were, if nothing else, reliable, tolerant of dirt, weather and abuse. The M-1 rifle was the best, most successful semi-auto rifle of WWII and its ‘kid’, the M-14, is still in use (1 to 2 per Infantry squad operating in places where long range is likely, i.e. – Afghanistan). Having said that, it still needed more cleaning than other infantry rifles and dust and grit affected it faster than the Ppsh-41. I took part in seizing a weapons cache in Iraq in 2004 where there were 2 Ppsh’s in the lot. Both were dated 1944 and made in the Tula works. We had about 500 rounds for them that looked equally old. I and a friend took them to a range and fired up 150 rounds each. It was as easy to control as a squirt gun (no kick) and the only misfires we experienced (3 of them) were due to bad rounds. None of them ‘stove piped’ and a quick bolt cycling cleared it and permitted us to continue firing with hardly a second’s delay. I’d never carry it operationally, but I sure wished I could have brought mine home. These weapons had not been treated with loving care, it was obvious. I highly doubt an M-1 in those conditions would have fired so reliably.

    Reply
  15. Greg Liska says:
    June 16, 2015 at 9:55 PM

    Hey – are we up to 25 cents worth of commentary yet? Those 2.3 cent posts add up.

    Reply
  16. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 10:10 PM

    great and accord too in all
    That answer(“Well, it wasn’t Rome) was so funny, it may me laugh for sure. I imagine the cap look..I will stop for tonight before ADM fire me out for typing so long. Kidding-LOL!!

    Reply
  17. Greg Liska says:
    June 16, 2015 at 10:11 PM

    I forgot to add: (we’re up to 27 cents now, I think) poor logistics, bordering on non-existent, surely made for the conditions that froze those Chinese soldiers. Our gear might not have been quite as good for long exposure to cold, but the US had and has a top notch log system. There was an old saying (bet Wayne has heard this if he attended any NATO schools) that the best NATO Army would have German officers, British NCOs and US logisticians.

    Reply
  18. erwin says:
    June 16, 2015 at 10:21 PM

    Yep , agree too; war are won with money, food and weapons. Fought and paid in human blood. The US had achieve this in log system most of the time and because of it reduce a lot their casualties plus inflicting more in their foes .I think I add 3 cents!!!LOL!!

    Reply
  19. Wayne W says:
    June 17, 2015 at 11:05 PM

    Greg – seems to ring a bell… 😉

    Another one I remember some might find interesting, if not amusing was what an instructor at an “OPFOR” (Opposing Force – a NewArmy way of saying the enemy or bad guys) class I attended described the major difference between the average US and Soviet soldier. “You see, the Soviet soldier is highly disciplined and will snap to obeying orders without question; the US soldier on the other hand isn’t so disciplined and can be troublesome if left to his own devices. If you put a Soviet soldier alone in a room with a table with a bunch of radio tubes, wires, and transistors and leave him alone with it he will usually stand guard over that table. ‘You take an American soldier and put him in that same room, leave him there long enough, and eventually he’ll get bored, start tinkering with that stuff, and make something out of it.”

    We were taught if going up a Soviet infantry formation to take out the officers, and if going up against a Soviet tank formation, look for the one tank in the formation that had an antenna, it was the command tank and the only one in contact with higher HQs, knock it out and the formation was headless.

    Reply
    • erwin says:
      June 17, 2015 at 11:40 PM

      Wayne that was funny.
      The last part remain me of the way German in ww2 were instructed too against Russian, so had not varied too much I guess!!.

      Reply
  20. Greg Liska says:
    June 18, 2015 at 5:51 AM

    I’d heard of a variant of this. The US Soldier was to watch over a group of ball bearings. When they relieved him of his duty, he’d lost one, broke another and was caught trying to steal the third. OPFOR is a term still in use, too.
    It seems I did not keep the pics took at the Infantry Museum. Sorry about that.

    Reply
  21. Carl Cwiklinski says:
    June 18, 2015 at 10:56 PM

    Gosh, guys – all I did was post one lousy photo!

    Reply

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